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I'm trying to understand the behaviour I'm seeing with some high power (apparently 5 watt) leds I purchased for some basic testing. I have one led plugged into a constant current 350ma power supply (using a Meanwell LDD-350HW to regulate current).

I'm measuring voltage across the LED at 20.32v which means I'm significantly over driving the LED at around 7 watts. It also means that I must have around 57 ohms of resistance somewhere from what I understand.

I'm assuming I'm missing pretty obvious here. Some advice would be much appreciated.

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    \$\begingroup\$ What are the LEDs? \$\endgroup\$
    – Majenko
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 20:43
  • \$\begingroup\$ Most individual LED's will have a curve showing voltage vs current. It may be called Vf (forward voltage) and If (forward current). The curve is not linear. Relative large current increases lead to relatively small voltage increases. Thinking of it as a resistance may not be too helpful. The way I would look at it is you drive a certain current through it, then you can find the voltage looking at the curve (or measuring with the actual LED). You must have more than one LED in series if you are seeing 20V. \$\endgroup\$
    – user57037
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 20:47
  • \$\begingroup\$ Are you guessing the CC rating of the LED? \$\endgroup\$
    – D.A.S.
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 20:47
  • \$\begingroup\$ "I must have around 57 ohms of resistance somewhere from what I understand." Yes. In the LEDs. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 20:54
  • \$\begingroup\$ @mkeith. Thanks for that. Yes, this is a COB. I can see three LED's lighting up. I don't have the Vf data so this is all guesswork. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 21:49

3 Answers 3

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In general, each diode can be approximated with the following equation:

$$ V_I \approx \left[\frac{n\cdot k\cdot T}{q}\right]\cdot ln\left(\frac{I}{I_s}\right)+I\cdot R_s$$

Where \$k\$ is Boltzmann's constant (there are several versions on the web, so make sure your units are correct), \$T\$ is the temperature (usually Kelvin, not Rankin), and \$q\$ is the charge of an electron (usually expressed in Coulombs, but must be consistent with the units used in Boltzmann's constant.) Those are physical parameters independent of the device design. (The value of \$\frac{k\cdot T}{q} \approx 26mV\$ at standard temperature and is commonly called the thermal voltage.) Then you have the model parameters \$I_s\$ (saturation current), \$R_s\$ (the Ohmic resistance), and \$n\$ (emission coefficient.) Those are calibrated to statistical average values used for each device part number (usually.)

You can linearize the above equation by taking the derivative:

$$ \newcommand{\dd}[1]{\mathrm{d}#1} \newcommand{\d}[0]{\mathrm{d}} \begin{align*} \d\left(V_I\right) &= \d\left(\left[\frac{n\cdot k\cdot T}{q}\right]\cdot ln\left(\frac{I}{I_s}\right)+I\cdot R_s\right) \\ \d V_I &= \left[\frac{n\cdot k\cdot T}{q}\right]\cdot\d\left( ln\left(\frac{I}{I_s}\right)\right)+\d \left(I\cdot R_s\right) \\ \d V_I &= \left[\frac{n\cdot k\cdot T}{q}\right]\cdot\frac{\d I}{I}+ R_s \cdot \d I \\ \d V_I &= \left(\frac{n\cdot k\cdot T}{q \cdot I}+R_s\right)\cdot\d I \\ \frac{\d V_I}{\d I} &= \frac{n\cdot k\cdot T}{q \cdot I}+R_s \end{align*} $$ That's the effective resistance model of an LED or any other diode. As you can see, it depends on the value of the current, \$I\$.

Here, the emission coefficient \$n\$ is kind of important, as it varies widely for diodes and LEDs. It's nominal value is \$n=1\$. But for LEDs, it is likely to be higher. For example, with an old-style red LED that uses \$I_{FWD}=20mA\$ and operates at \$V_{FWD}=2V\$ the value of \$R_s=21\Omega\$ and so \$n\approx 1.2\$.

A series of LEDs that are of a similar manufacture, you can assume that they all use the same model parameters. So you can multiply the above equation by how many LEDs are in series to get the total effective resistance. It's possible to figure out the parameters by making a few measurements of the voltage across the LED module, doing so at different known currents (and watching out to make the measurements quickly so that the die temperatures are not significantly different.)

Not sure if that helps, at all. But it's an approach to working out a model you can use to predict the behavior and operating points for your LED module.

Do take note that the effective resistance varies depending on the current used. So any single value you compute at one current will not apply well if you change the current much. A single resistance value is only good near the operational point you used to estimate it. If you want a better model, you need to use the above method and take a number of (three or more) data points in order to develop an approximation that you can use over a wider range of currents.

Note to @TonyStewart (not a comment to the OP): All V-I curves, by their slopes, represent instantaneous resistance where ever you look. Same with the diode curves. So I take Tony's point about "operated well above the knee of the curve." I just don't take Tony's point, generally. Let's take a look and see why I think Tony's comments below have hand-waved away what are, in fact, important details.

I'm going to call the ohmic resistance \$R_{on}\$, as before, and I'll call the other term the dynamic resistance, \$R_{dyn}\$ (apologies about letter casing):

  1. A typical red GaAs LED (\$I_s=93.2pA, n=3.73, R_{on}=42m\Omega\$): Note the low value for \$R_{on}\$. This LED will exhibit \$R_{dyn}\approx 4.85\Omega\$ when operated at \$20mA\$ and will exhibit \$R_{dyn}\approx 2.42\Omega\$ when operated at \$40mA\$. Note that \$R_{on}\$ pretty much disappears into the dust. Quite the opposite of what Tony seems to suggest in his comments.
  2. A typical (other colors than red) GaAs LED (\$I_s=93.1pA, n=4.61, R_{on}=42m\Omega\$): Note that \$R_{on}\$ here is the same (as you might expect from physical considerations) and that \$R_{dyn}\approx 6\Omega\$ when operated at \$20mA\$ and will exhibit \$R_{dyn}\approx 3\Omega\$ when operated at \$40mA\$. Once again, the dynamic resistance is quite dominant. Again, quite different than what Tony suggested in his comments below.
  3. A typical blue SiC LED: (\$I_s=93.1pA, n=7.47, R_{on}=42m\Omega\$): Note once again that \$R_{on}\$ here is the same (as you might again expect from physical considerations) and that \$R_{dyn}\approx 9.7\Omega\$ when operated at \$20mA\$ and will exhibit \$R_{dyn}\approx 4.86\Omega\$ when operated at \$40mA\$.

My earlier point that the emission coefficient can be very much higher than the usual value of \$1\$ is important. The usual operating points of modern LEDs isn't where Tony imagined them to be. So, quite to the opposite of Tony's comments, the \$R_{dyn}=\frac{n\cdot k\cdot T}{q \cdot I}\$ is actually the dominant term for modern LEDs.

And this also matches my practical experience with LEDs. Their behaviors are, in fact, dominated by \$R_{dyn}\$. So the operating point has almost everything to do with their modeled resistance and it is the case that you only know the resistance for a small region around the measured operating point.

My entire earlier discussion remains, in short.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ We know Rs is undefined in the general model, but there is a practical way to estimate it easily for any diode of any power rating. \$\endgroup\$
    – D.A.S.
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 9:30
  • \$\begingroup\$ Since LED's are operated well above the "knee" of the curve, the n*(26mV)/I term can be neglected. \$\endgroup\$
    – D.A.S.
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 9:46
  • \$\begingroup\$ @TonyStewart: See added note. Couldn't add it as a comment, sorry. \$\endgroup\$
    – jonk
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 21:14
  • \$\begingroup\$ Thanks Jonk , I respect your efforts, but these are low efficacy GaAs LEDs All my assumptions are based on high efficiency LEDs and hundrds of comparative data in spreadsheets. Since 5 mm LEDs now have ESR ~16 Ohms for n*26mV/20mV is possibly <2 Ohms and far less in power LEDs \$\endgroup\$
    – D.A.S.
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 21:57
  • \$\begingroup\$ @TonyStewart: I guess my main point here is that, time and time again, I find that the dominant term of an LED I'm using is NOT the Rs term. But instead is the nkT/q term. It's just been my life that you can't ignore it. I can't recall a case in 15 or 20 years now where it didn't matter and could be ignored. \$\endgroup\$
    – jonk
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 22:47
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LEDs have an I/V curve which describes their voltage with relation to a given current.

High power LEDs are usually arrays of Series/Parallel LEDs, which can be seen as little dots on the package (this one in the image is likely a 3S3P array):

enter image description here

So in practice, an I/V curve of a high power LED will be a mix of the I/V curves of the LEDs that are in the array (roughly in series you sum Vf, in parallel you sum If).

enter image description here

So:

(number of LEDs in series) * (Vf at 350mA) = 20.32V

White LEDs typically have a Vf of 3.2V ~3.6V. If we guess 6 LEDs (so 6S_P), this gives 3.38Vf. Sounds like a reasonable guess.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Hi Wesley. Thanks for that. I've seen forward voltage mentioned a number of times. I think I actually get this example. This is also the problem with purchasing LED's from aliexpress. No data doesn't help at all. The ones I'm using are 3 led's in a COB so would have to have a Vf of around 6V in series which also seems odd to me. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 21:19
  • \$\begingroup\$ @MichaelErbacher -- can you post an image or URL of your LED? \$\endgroup\$
    – Wesley Lee
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 21:37
  • \$\begingroup\$ Hi Wesley. As requested link \$\endgroup\$ Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 3:49
  • \$\begingroup\$ these 12V LEDs shouldn't be driven with constant current sources. They have a current limiting device in them, either active or a simple resistor. Thats why your calculations are off and the values are weird. The page itself says 3W LED inside the module. You should update your question.. \$\endgroup\$
    – Wesley Lee
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 4:11
  • \$\begingroup\$ So what you are telling me is a little knowledge is dangerous and the next step is to plug into a standard 12v power supply in parallel with sufficient wattage and stop googling about how important constant current is? :) \$\endgroup\$ Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 5:40
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LED Impedance is the differential rise of V/I we call ESR or Effective Series Resistance. It is not 20.3V/350mA=58 Ohms. It is very low so depending on power rating, I will be zero until about 87% of the Vf rated where the threshold occurs. The it rises dynamically until saturation then linearly due to ESR, the bulk resistance of the junctions.

If your part is a White LED chip or module and is rated for 5W with a CC drop of about 20.3V but you are driving it with 7W, then it will be too hot to touch.

The assumption for power LEDs is approx. 3V drop per LED or 7LED in series here. it could be an array or a single string 7S which results in approx. 21 V but will drop in voltage as junction temp rises. Junction temp can be computed from this.

As far as equivalent series resistance, it depends on the differential change in V vs I or the ESR of the LED.

Normally ESR is inverse to power rating per chip and 7 chips in series will have 7x the ESR. assuming 7S and 5W total, according to my experience, the ESR would be 1/Pd * Ns or about 1.4 Ohms or less.

If there were only 6S , rated for 5W , the Vf could be ~18-20V with even more spread possible @250mA with an ESR of 1 Ohm +/-50% thus an extra 100mA would raise Vf by another 150mV to 20.2V which is close to your result.

If what you indicated for this LED is true, it needs a current source of 5/7 *350mA or 250mA

enter image description here

  • Here is a random power LED chosen in 12V range rated at 350mA from Cree
  • The lower curve indicates typ. Vf @350mA ~11.68V (375mA is mid axis)
  • Checking the linear slope at 350mA, on 12V part , I measure slope and ESR @25'C of (11.9-11.4V)/250mA = 2 Ohm. **notice how linear this region is ** around nom. current @ rated power
  • using the ignored quadratic part , it contributes n*24mV/350mA dynamic resistance which appears to be much smaller than actual ESR from contact bulk linear resistance.
  • The contact size is also related to dissipation rating and this is how I use ESR*Pd as a Figure of Merit in quality (lower is better) series ESR must be added but this is a 4 chip LED with options for 2S2P @6V or 4S1P @ 12V
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  • \$\begingroup\$ In my example above the asymptote of operating current taken down to low current is the knee of the curve or ~ 10.8V, so this is well above \$\endgroup\$
    – D.A.S.
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 22:54

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