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Suppose we have an ideal capacitor with a certain voltage between its plates. We connect the two plates using an ideal (lossless) wire, so the capacitor discharges. Where has the energy having been stored in the capacitor gone?

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    \$\begingroup\$ What happens when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object? \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 4:23
  • \$\begingroup\$ You state that the wire is ideal. Do you agree that an ideal wire has no resistance, no capacitance, and no inductance? Are you using a different definition of ideal from the rest of the world? \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 12:41
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    \$\begingroup\$ Do you understand what the word "lossless" means? You are basically asking "How much energy is lost in a lossless circuit element?" \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 13:10
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Elliot Any wire carrying current, regardless of its loss, produces magnetic field around it. The formula for the magnetic field at distance R from the wire is: μI/2πR. \$\endgroup\$
    – Alex L
    Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 17:40
  • \$\begingroup\$ The energy in the magnetic field around a wire is not lost. If a wire connects an ideal voltage source to an ideal resistor then the energy provided by the source is exactly equal to the energy converted to heat in the resistor. There is no additional energy lost because of the magnetic field around the wire. You can't have it both ways. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 18:25

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You have specified a superconducting shunt, with zero resistance. What you have not done is to specify its inductance. And you cannot force inductance to zero.

So your circuit looks like

schematic

simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab

Let's say the cap is at some voltage V0. When you close the switch, the cap is at full voltage, and the current through the inductor is zero. As the current through the inductor rises, the voltage across the cap will fall. At some point the cap voltage will be zero, but the inductor current will be at maximum, and the capacitor voltage will be driven negative. As the capacitor voltage becomes more negative, the inductor current will drop, and when the cap is at -V0 the inductor current will be zero, and the process will start again in the other direction.

So the voltage and currents will both be sinusoidal, and phase shifted by 90 degrees wrt each other.

The maximum current can be determined by observing that the magnetic energy stored in the inductor at peak current equals the energy stored in the cap at peak voltage. If you know V0, C and L, you can calculate i(max). The frequency of the oscillations will be $$ f = \frac{1}{2\pi \sqrt{LC}}$$

Of course, in real life the magnetic field in the inductor will extend beyond the inductor, and any conductor within this changing magnetic field will have a voltage induced and will dissipate power. This means that the amplitude of both voltage and current will be gradually reduced, and eventually they will approach zero. At this point all of the energy stored in the cap will have been dissipated in the surrounding material. Plus, this interaction with the surroundings will alter the oscillation frequency.

EDIT - As Eliot Anderson has commented/implied, I did not actually answer the question as asked. Instead, I rejected the idea of an ideal shunt, and explained the issue in terms of what we laughingly call reality. So let me try to rectify the situation.

Assuming an ideal shunt, with neither resistance nor inductance, what happens to the charge? The simplest answer is that the question cannot be answered. When the switch is closed, the current becomes $$i=\frac{V}{R} $$ However, there is a really basic rule to follow (unless you get into more advanced mathematics): never divide by zero. This will always get you into bad territory. And for an ideal shunt the resistance is zero. So don't do it. Just don't.

There is another way to look at it which may help (and may not). If the shunt has a non-zero resistance, you can calculate how much energy will be dissipated in discharging the cap, and not surprisingly it works out to the amount of energy in the cap when you started, and the result is the same for any non-zero value of R. So, if you want to look at things crosseyed, you can say that, since the energy dissipated in the shunt remains constant regardless of the resistance, you can take the limit as the resistance approaches zero, and this will be the same constant value.

Ahem. Yes, there's a problem with this. The simple answer is that the value of the current and power cannot be computed, and the underlying assumptions made in taking the limit don't apply - so you can't take this particular limit.

Or maybe it's just simpler to say Thou Shalt Not Divide By Zero and be done with it.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ yes, this is what I had in mind! \$\endgroup\$
    – Alex L
    Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 6:33
  • \$\begingroup\$ @AliLavasani - Also note that this explanation applies if you use your switch to connect a charged cap to an uncharged one. Calculating the before and after energies in the caps will tell you that (for equal caps) the final state will only have half the starting energy. Where did the other half go? Same story. Stray inductance will cause the system to oscillate, and the radiated energy will account for the missing energy. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 17:34
  • \$\begingroup\$ Let's be clear here. What you describe, which is correct, is a circuit where connections are made with real wires rather than ideal wires. Ideal wires and ideal capacitors don't have stray inductance. The first paragraph of your answer is critical. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 18:27
  • \$\begingroup\$ @ElliotAlderson - Your objection is valid, and I've edited. Thanks for pointing it out. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 19:23
  • \$\begingroup\$ @WhatRoughBeast It wasn't an objection, just a nudge to readers who might not read carefully. It's a good answer, and I really like the last line you added. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 21:42
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It makes the Platonic ideal of a black hole just a bit bigger. Which sounds impossible, but then, ideal capacitors are impossible.

Even if you built a physical capacitor and wires out of superconducting materials, and managed to short it out (with more superconducting materials) without generating a spark, the wires would have length, as would the capacitor plates. You would have a system which, at best, acted like a capacitor in series with a coil, all in a small loop capable of radiating. You would see a mostly-sinusoidal wave that diminished (probably for an insanely high number of cycles) to zero.

What you would not have is anything that satisfies a first-order ODE to produce an infinitely short burst of infinite current.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Note that if the wire is ideal, so would be the inductor, and therefore, the sinusoidal current will never diminish. There should be a mechanism which has nothing to do with ohmic loss. The option I had in mind, was that the wire radiates the energy out. \$\endgroup\$
    – Alex L
    Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 1:49
  • \$\begingroup\$ @AliLavasani An ideal wire has, by definition, no voltage across it. Shorting an ideal capacitor causes dV/dt to be infinite, which requires an infinite current. Such a circuit is nonsensical and cannot be analyzed using normal techniques. You are using invalid reasoning. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 1:58
  • \$\begingroup\$ Why should there be any mechanism at all? An ideal capacitor is pretend. It simply does not exist. Hence my smart-ass comments about the Platonic ideal of a black hole. You can take whatever "option" you want, but it's all just games unless you can relate it back to reality somehow. \$\endgroup\$
    – TimWescott
    Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 5:13
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Elliot My idea is valid! this question has in fact been a Ph.D. qualification question, it's not something random popped in my mind! The idea is that the wire, even ideal, produces a magnetic field around it which carries the energy out. This mechanism exists even if everything is ideal. \$\endgroup\$
    – Alex L
    Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 6:30
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    \$\begingroup\$ @AliLavasani An ideal wire has no inductance and creates no magnetic field! As your question stated an ideal wire is lossless. You can't say in the question that it is lossless and then give an answer that requires it to be lossy! You are changing the meanings of words! \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jan 11, 2019 at 12:40
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Ideal capacitors do not exist in nature ( only in simulators ) and ideal wire does not exist ( only in simulators ).

Therefore the real energy of E=½CV² is dissipated in the ESR of the cap and Rs of the wire with a peak current of \$Ic=Vc/(Rs+ESR) = C dV/dt\$

If we charge 1 uF cap with a hypothetical ESR of 1μΩ and charge it with 1 mΩ from 1 V, we get two time constants, Tc=1ns ,Td=1ps for charge and discharge. ( really fast)

The charge current is 1V/1mΩ = 1kA and 1kW max of heat in a time constant of 1 ns ( at 64% V ) in the resistor.

The discharge current = 1V/1 mΩ = \$10^6\$ Amps in 1 ps time constant with a peak power of 1 GW.

Yet in a theoretical singularity of current you get the "big bang" perhaps from secondary electric field effects of exploding matter if there is sufficient Joules of stored energy. In the lab, you might only get a loud bang.

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Excellent question. Theoretically you can learn from ideal capacitors and conductors. The answer is also mathematically testable and I suspect that you can do the test. The answer is electromagnetic radiation. Test: Imagine the schematic of a charged capacitor and an uncharged capacitor with an open switch between their positive sides and connected on their negative sides. Give the capacitors equal capacities and assign a voltage to the charged capacitor. Calculate its stored energy. Close the switch. Now the capacitors will have equal voltages; each can be up to 1/2 the original voltage. Now calculate the stored energy in each and add them together. You will find that at least half the energy is missing. It was radiated away like a radio station.

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