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I had an LM2576 (ADJ variant) lying around and tried building a buck, and then an inverting buck-boost converter, purely for academic purposes. I have next to no prior experience with converters (or power management in general).

For the inverting buck-boost, I tried to follow the data sheet, but didn't have the right inductors, nor the right diode, but I thought that even though it may not work particularly well, it should work to some degree, right? Instead of the suggested 68uH, I used a 330uH power inductor rated at 800mA, and instead of a Schottky diode I used a regular one rated at 1A (also tried standard 1N4148). The goal was to make -5V from 9V, give or take with a load of no more than 50mA or so.

schematic

simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab

Background: It didn't work initially (had slightly different parts here and there), and on my lab PSU it looked like it short circuited. Some searching suggested that I need different inductor or output capacitor values, and it's totally important that they're 100% correct, and a Schottky diode, so after messing around with the parts I have at hand, I was getting partial success. Turns out that was a red herring, after reading the datasheet again (in particular the topic about the undervoltage lockout circuit), I tried disconnecting VIn, then turning on the PSU and letting C1 charge, and then connecting VIn, and it worked despite my borked parts.


It appears that the problem was that the lab PSU was ramping up its output voltage too slowly, in combination with the overcurrent protection kicking in at 500mA, so output voltage dropped below 2V while the circuit was drawing a constant 500mA, and the LM2576 never had a chance to boot up. Depending on the inductor and capacitor used, the output is between 0V and around -2V or so.

My question is, when it's drawing a steady 500mA in the broken state, where exactly is all that power going? If the output is 0V, then it can't be the diode, so it must be in the LM2576 itself, but where exactly? How come it's not enough to turn on the circuit properly? My only guess is that the LM2576, being advertised as a pure buck-converter, regulated its duty cycle close to 100% (my intuition says a buck-boost converter should operate around 50% to 60%), so at close to 100% the inductor essentially only sees DC and nothing really happens. I don't have an oscilloscope (yet), but my multimeter wasn't able to pick up any frequency at the VOut pin in the faulty state (but was able to pick up the switching frequency when the circuit works correctly), which would support this theory.

To be clear, I know that several things are going wrong here, but I would like to understand why I'm observing what I'm observing when it's in this wrong state.

If that is the case, then how do commercial or industrial applications reliably protect against entering in this faulty (and potentially dangerous) state in the first place? Even with an undervoltage lockout circuit present, the supply could be too weak, no? (imagine a battery powered device)

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  • \$\begingroup\$ I read the title and alarm bells went off in my head. You are wondering why a buck converter fails to work as a negative source by grounding the output. The poor LM2576. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Aug 7 at 17:30
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    \$\begingroup\$ @StainlessSteelRat Point taken, but I wouldn't have gotten the idea if it wasn't suggested in TI's datasheet. Chapter 8.1.9. And as mentioned, this is purely for academic purposes. \$\endgroup\$
    – dialer
    Commented Aug 7 at 18:14
  • \$\begingroup\$ So eliminate the negative feedback and see if that helps. And I have had limited success with switchers on breadboards with the correct components. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Aug 7 at 18:43

3 Answers 3

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I'm suspecting that your 1N4007 is causing issues. The datasheet of your LM2576 specifically says not to use it. According to the 1N4007's datasheet, the forward voltage is 1V at 1A, which is causing a very large voltage drop. Not to mention, there's also a matter of the reverse recovery time of the diode, which is 2us. That is not ideal for high frequency switching, even if your duty cycle is nearly 100%. With the LM2576 switching frequency of 52kHz, or a ~19us period, having 2us of reverse recovery time is going to take up a rather large portion of time for your LM2576 to try to perform at a sufficient efficiency.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Thanks for your response. I will certainly try to get my hands on an oscilloscope, as well as the exact Schottky diode suggested in the data sheet. The only other diode type I could have used is the ubiquitous 1N4148, but it's only rated at 200mA. I tried it and maybe it behaved slightly better, but it was overall the same. I will get back to this answer after I've played around with new parts. \$\endgroup\$
    – dialer
    Commented Aug 7 at 17:46
  • \$\begingroup\$ @dialer You're welcome. I don't think an oscope in necessary. The issue is pretty obvious because even you were able to identify that there was an issue rather quickly without an oscope. But if you're just curious about its transients, you can use the oscope. \$\endgroup\$
    – Colin
    Commented Aug 8 at 4:05
  • \$\begingroup\$ Something that I did forget to mention was the inductor being rather large, as others have already pointed out. I just think the diode is more damning. Having a 330uH inductor is not necessarily going to make or break your power stage but it could very well affect your ripple current and how much current you want to draw overall. \$\endgroup\$
    – Colin
    Commented Aug 8 at 4:10
  • \$\begingroup\$ I've experimented with different configs and after comparing scope readings I believe the diode was indeed the biggest problem, seems it more than doubled the duty cycle necessary to drive small loads. When the load becomes high enough, at some point the duty cycle becomes practically 100%, at which point no switching operation is happening anymore. At that point, the circuit has no chance to ever recover. So the question remains how an application can be protected from entering in this state, and/or how it can recover from that state. Maybe preventing this entirely isn't possible with a buck \$\endgroup\$
    – dialer
    Commented Aug 13 at 17:43
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My question is, when it's drawing a steady 500mA in the broken state, where is all that power going?

Its going into heat, if you have a thermal camera or some way to measure the temperature you could see which component it's going into. Some of the power is going into the diode, the 1N4007 has a very large forward voltage (1V@1A) typically you want a very low forward voltage so less power is consumed by the diode. You also must use the right inductor. Also make sure that you have the adjustable part as some parts have the feedback divider built into the part.

How come it's not enough to turn on the circuit properly?

Also make sure that you view the input and output on an oscilloscope, sometimes really fast switching can confuse some cheap bench supplies current measuring.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Well, I don't really have a thermal camera at hand and was hoping this can be explained using theory. Since the effect can also occur while the output is at 0V, meaning no voltage drop across the diode, I would assume that the power dissipates in the LM2576 itself. Just can't wrap my head around where exactly. And yes, it's the ADJ part. Coincidentally, I believe there's an error in TI's datasheet - it uses the ADJ variant with no feedback resistor network, leading to -1.23V output. I think they meant to use the 12V variant, as it is shown in the corresponding onsemi datasheet. (tbc)... \$\endgroup\$
    – dialer
    Commented Aug 7 at 17:51
  • \$\begingroup\$ Anyway, I will try to get my hands on an oscilloscope to verify this and then get back to this. Thanks for your answer. \$\endgroup\$
    – dialer
    Commented Aug 7 at 17:51
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it worked despite my borked parts

It "worked" for some low value of "work", with unloaded output or with a very light load :)

  1. The inductor, unless it was designed to be a power inductor, would likely saturate when the output had heavier load. The converter will not work then and go into thermal shutdown rather quickly as it would get super-hot from having shorted output.

  2. The diode will dissipate lots of power due to slow reverse recovery and forward voltage 2-3x that of a Schottky. This would also manifest with the output loaded.

The higher inductor value is not that big of a problem. The converter will work, slightly less efficiently perhaps. The important rating is the saturation current of the substitute inductor. If that is lower than the original inductor, the inductor will saturate once the load current is high enough. Once saturated, the inductor current will grow very quickly - limited only by the series impedance of the converter's switch and the input capacitor. The converter will detect that and open the switch to protect itself and the inductor. The problem then is that nothing further limits the current through the diode once the switch in the converter opens. This may do further damage, depending on circumstances.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Thanks for your response. It was clear that it's not going to work well, I was just surprised to find that it either works "for some low value of work" (which is fine by me), OR it just shorts out and is completely broken. The inductor says 330uH and 800mA "operating current". I don't know if that means the same as saturation current. Also tried others ranging from 55mA to 1.5A. But the 330uH one is a power inductor. In the faulty state, the output is somewhere between 0V and -2V (depending on which inductor/capacitor I used); at 0V the diode shouldn't dissipate power. (tbc)... \$\endgroup\$
    – dialer
    Commented Aug 7 at 18:02
  • \$\begingroup\$ So if I'm interpreting you correctly, it's likely that the power dissipates over the switching transistors in the converter, OR the diode iff the voltage is high enough. I will try to get may hands on more varied parts for inductors and diodes, and then get back to this answer. Until now I assumed that it is totally fine if the operating current of the power inductor is rated higher than needed. Also, you made me curious how low my value of "work" actually is... Also, I think this doesn't quite explain how entering in this faulty state can be reliably prevented in case of a weak power supply. \$\endgroup\$
    – dialer
    Commented Aug 7 at 18:06
  • \$\begingroup\$ After some experimenting I believe the substitute inductor is fine, or at least its impact compared to others in the 68..220uH range is insignificant in my circuit; the diode has a much bigger impact. But regardless of the parts used, at some point the load is high enough such that the LM2576 will regulate its duty cycle so close to 100% that the inductor practically sees DC. It can never recover from that state. I'm thinking this is likely a general limitation of using a pure buck converter in this configuration, or maybe it is, I'd be happy to hear either way. \$\endgroup\$
    – dialer
    Commented Aug 13 at 17:51

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