2
\$\begingroup\$

I need some help verifying the transfer function of this amplifier circuit stage. The below circuit has a gain of 20 from the result of Rf and Rg.

enter image description here Below is the nodal analysis equation where G is used to show conductance. enter image description here

The problem I am having is that I have 2 transfer functions in a feedback loop. G(s) and H(s), the op amp open loop transfer function and the closed loop transfer function. When they combine in feedback loop I get a final transfer function of G(s)/(1+G(s)*H(s))

My output transfer function however seems to have gain bode plot of less than unity!

  • Green curve = output transfer function
  • Blue curve = G(s) op amp open loop transfer function
  • Orange curve = close loop H(s)

Shouldn't the amplifier stage, well, amplify? I can clearly see that the math works out to make it less than unity gain, but how is the output voltage going to be amplified? For example: at DC the math works out to be -26dB, gain of ~1/20. Similarly, the closed loop gain is around +26dB.

When applying H(s) to G(s), in feedback it became net negative. But to apply a real voltage at the input and expect an output, let's say for 1 volt input @DC, Vi=1, Vo=ViTF -> Vo=10.05011=0.05011.

The problem here is I am missing 1/x somewhere to get the proper gain of 20. I thought the transfer function is Vo=TF*Vi not Vo=1/TF *Vi?

enter image description here

\$\endgroup\$
3
  • \$\begingroup\$ What gain & phase do you want at all critical frequencies? Must define!this is trivial on Falstad’s Bode Plotter but you can compute easier with Admittance for parallel feedback to 1/Rg for gain so compute 1/Av(f) the Y(f) for each part attenuates the inverse gain. \$\endgroup\$ Aug 18, 2020 at 21:43
  • \$\begingroup\$ as the net phase shifts past 90 deg it starts towards positive feedback and boosts the breakpoint gain of Green \$\endgroup\$ Aug 18, 2020 at 21:50
  • \$\begingroup\$ I am sorry, I don't understand. I want a gain of 20 at most frequencies. My phase just has to be enough so that it isn't ringy-dingy. Why would the green curve (output transfer function) be under unity gain? The amplifier transfer function should amplify! \$\endgroup\$
    – Jirhska
    Aug 18, 2020 at 22:03

2 Answers 2

1
\$\begingroup\$

I am not familiar with Mathematica.

Your system

feedback system with G and H

G should be of the format \$\frac{V3}{V1}\$. i.e. V1 is input, V3 is output of G(s)

H should be of the format \$\frac{V1}{V3}\$. i.e. V3 is input and V1 is output of H(s).

However, your image seems to show that HofS1 is a function which takes V1 as input and produces V3 as output. I think that this actually represents 1/H(s).

So the line SystemsModelFeedbackConnect(..) is actually doing

\$\frac{G(s)}{1 + G(s)\frac{1}{H(s)}} = \frac{G(s)H(s)}{H(s) + G(s)} \$

So for large values of G(s) (below 10^7 Hz?) you may be effectively plotting H(s) which is supported by the observation that green plot and yellow plot are symmetric about 0 dB.

\$\endgroup\$
2
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ This answer is trying to answer "The problem here is I am missing 1/x somewhere to get the proper gain of 20". I don't know Mathematica, so I cannot check. \$\endgroup\$
    – AJN
    Aug 19, 2020 at 17:26
  • \$\begingroup\$ This is the answer! I fixed this and it worked thanks again @AJN! \$\endgroup\$
    – Jirhska
    Aug 19, 2020 at 18:33
0
\$\begingroup\$

Use a PID (or a PI controller rather:

enter image description here

Source: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Chapter-Ten-Pid-Control-10.1-Basic-Control/32f76117181bcdd012511fdc0d78c96378a46e72 Figure 10

The P is the gain term, you want this to be 20.

\$ K_p = 20 = \frac{R_2}{R_1}\$

The I term will be where you want the pole to be (you only get one with the PI controller with a -20db/dec rolloff)

\$ K_I = 2\pi f = R_2 C_2 \$

If you really do need the output non-inverted, then use another inverting stage with a gain of 1 after the first one.

\$\endgroup\$
6
  • \$\begingroup\$ Thanks, the circuit topology is one part of an instrumentation amplifier so it needs to be noninverting. I am just not sure why the transfer function curve is below unity gain when it does amplify in a SPICE program. \$\endgroup\$
    – Jirhska
    Aug 18, 2020 at 23:26
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ If both sides of the instrumentation amplifier are not balanced it will destroy your common mode voltage range \$\endgroup\$
    – Voltage Spike
    Aug 19, 2020 at 0:17
  • \$\begingroup\$ I think I need to swap solving for V3/V1 and solve for V1/V3 since input is actually output in a feedback system! \$\endgroup\$
    – Jirhska
    Aug 19, 2020 at 15:02
  • \$\begingroup\$ Why are you using an inst amp for this? \$\endgroup\$
    – Voltage Spike
    Aug 19, 2020 at 16:36
  • \$\begingroup\$ I was encountering stability problems in an existing in-amp circuit. Doing the control theory analysis was my next step in order to improve gain margin \$\endgroup\$
    – Jirhska
    Aug 19, 2020 at 18:38

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service and acknowledge that you have read and understand our privacy policy and code of conduct.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.