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I have a Tektronix TDS640a scope that overall works very well for its age. I also have OEM 500 MHz probes, P6139B. When sampling at or above 25 us, my waveforms look "normal": nice flat signals, with maybe 1 or 2 pixels of "noise". I have the bandwidth filter on here, but I don't really need it for this signal. Generally, everything "works normally" at this time window.

enter image description here

However, when I reduce the time step by one "tick", down to 10 us, my signal gets very noisy and chaotic, practically unusable for making any sort of fine measurements. I've used the averaging method before, and that helps some for repeating signals, but for one-shots like capturing switch bounce, that isn't very helpful.

enter image description here

I know the scope has many years on it, but I can't imagine it was intended to operate like this. I've observed this on all 4 channels, with 6 different probes (4 OEM, 2 some off brand unspec ones), generally regardless of settings (including the bandwidth filter). What's causing the major increase in noise at these small time windows?

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  • \$\begingroup\$ If just turning the knob going from 25us to 10us causes this change without touching the probes+GND, I'd say that something inside the scope is broken. \$\endgroup\$
    – Lundin
    Mar 29 at 14:36
  • \$\begingroup\$ Is it possible to set this oscilloscope to force a different sample rate? Can you set it to 2 MS/s at the 10 μs/div timebase, like it is on the 25 μs/div one? Or to 5 MS/s on the 25 μs/div timebase? That would help confirm or refute my theory as to what the source of the problem is. \$\endgroup\$
    – Hearth
    Mar 29 at 15:05
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Hearth The only thing I can think of to change the sample rate is to change the samples/div setting, from 500 to 1000 to 2000. I think. I can double check later when I get home, but I recall the time window setting also adjusting when changing this setting. \$\endgroup\$
    – Drise
    Mar 29 at 15:11
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Drise That would work, try that. Depending on the timebase, some of those settings may not be possible; the ADC can only work so fast, and the scope only has so much sample memory. But try changing it and see if it affects the problem you see. \$\endgroup\$
    – Hearth
    Mar 29 at 15:13
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Drise At this point I'd just open up the scope and recap everything outside the CRT drive circuit (don't open a CRT drive circuit if you don't know what you're doing, and probably don't open it if you do know what you're doing, those things are dangerous). Electrolytics from the 90s are likely desperately in need of replacement by now. \$\endgroup\$
    – Hearth
    Mar 30 at 3:11

1 Answer 1

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All signs point towards this being a problem with the oscilloscope itself. It appears that when you change timebases from 25 μs/div to 10 μs/div, the sample rate also changes from 2.00 MS/s to 5.00 MS/s (the scope says so, on the top line of the screen). Clearly, there's something wrong with the vertical circuit that only shows up when the ADC is sampling at 5 MS/s. This could be as simple as a bad capacitor on power supply, preventing the ADC's supply voltage (from which the reference voltage is surely derived) from recovering fast enough at higher sample rates. Electrolytic capacitors do tend to go bad with age, so I wouldn't be surprised if this is the fault.

Fortunately, the TDS640A is from the era where you can expect a detailed service manual with troubleshooting flowcharts to be available, and indeed one is, right here. Try following the troubleshooting steps there (starting on page 225) and see if that can't lead you to the problem. If you have a computer with a serial port, or a USB-to-serial adapter cable, you may be able to get the scope to just tell you what's wrong with it (very fancy, for the time!). The troubleshooting steps all seem to end in "replace the X module/cable/board", which is likely no longer possible to get easily, but it shouldn't be too hard to hone in on the source of the problem with the X module/cable/board and replace the faulty part.


Edit in response to some comments:

At this point, I'd recommend you just open up the scope and replace all the electrolytic capacitors in the thing, outside the CRT drive circuit at least. Electrolytics from the 90s are not going to be in good shape some 20+ years later; they degrade with time, whether used or not. It should be fairly cheap and easy to get equivalent capacitors today from Digikey, Mouser, Newark, or whatever supplier you prefer. (I implore you not to get them from Amazon, Ebay, or Aliexpress, though.) I recommend going with capacitors from a recognised manufacturer like Nichicon, Nippon Chemi-con (aka United Chemi-con in the US and Europe Chemi-con in Europe), Rubycon, Panasonic, or Würth Elektronik; the very cheapest ones from no-name manufacturers tend to have quality problems in my experience.

I specify not to replace them in the CRT drive circuit not because those are less likely to need replacing or anything (they're not), but because working on a CRT is dangerous. The whole circuit is enclosed in a separate box with high voltage warning labels for a reason--lethal voltages can and do remain on capacitors (particularly the CRT itself, whose anode can store lethal amounts of charge at upwards of 10 to 15 kV), and should absolutely not be opened unless you know what you're doing--and should almost never be opened when you do know what you're doing, either.

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    \$\begingroup\$ After doing some nosing around the tek repair forums, apparently the original electrolytic caps have a bad reputation for popping and corroding anything and everything. So much so that they generally recommend not powering it on without inspecting the board first. From this, I gather your speculation about the caps is probably correct. Will have to do some more in depth probing. I also am tempted to just avoid using the scope below this threshold out of fear of doing more harm than good on the scope's insides. We'll see what the extended diagnostics reports and go from there. \$\endgroup\$
    – Drise
    Mar 29 at 16:49
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Drise any further damage is likely to come from having it powered on at all, not selecting that specific timebase. \$\endgroup\$
    – hobbs
    Mar 30 at 1:52
  • \$\begingroup\$ @hobbs I meant more that I wasn't 100% confident in taking the machine apart, so I can accept the functionality loss and just not use the scope in that region (or compensate by using averaging etc). I'm just working up to taking it apart to fix, it doesn't seem as easy to repair as other scopes I've repaired (TDS 210). Lots of boards to work on, especially with that CRT driver. Thankfully there is a very detailed manual, so it shouldn't go terribly wrong, just apprehensive. \$\endgroup\$
    – Drise
    Mar 30 at 15:24
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Drise ah, got it. You're dealing with the possibility that it will degrade further and/or damage nearby components, though. \$\endgroup\$
    – hobbs
    Mar 30 at 15:29
  • \$\begingroup\$ @hobbs Yea, I know. The unknown state of those caps has me worried. This is a scope I got from my workplace, they upgraded and were going to just throw it out. So I know it generally hasn't been abused, but I know they upgraded for a reason, likely this. Probably gonna take a look to see what I can see tonight. \$\endgroup\$
    – Drise
    Mar 30 at 15:33

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