2
\$\begingroup\$

I have been trying to understand, intuitively and physically, how crosstalk works. If I have a net that is switching (from either LO to HI or from HI to LO) running adjacent to a static line (LO or HI), I understand that there will be some sort of capacitive coupling.

What I am trying to figure out is how the aggressor line (switching net) is able to raise or drop the voltage of the victim line as it switches. I haven’t been able to intuitively understand this and was wondering if someone could help explain how this is happening (in terms of charges, voltages and physical effects).

Thank you in advance!

\$\endgroup\$
3
  • \$\begingroup\$ "I understand that there will be some sort of capacitive coupling" - yes, you're effectively connecting the two lines together with a capacitor, which passes some of the AC signal through. If it was a resistor instead it would be more obvious. \$\endgroup\$
    – Finbarr
    Commented Aug 21, 2022 at 20:47
  • \$\begingroup\$ That makes sense! I’m just trying to deeper into how the AC voltage is passed through. Feels very abstract in terms of how that’s happening. \$\endgroup\$
    – KEE97
    Commented Aug 21, 2022 at 20:50
  • \$\begingroup\$ Might want to look at the answers here: electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/582802/… \$\endgroup\$
    – SteveSh
    Commented Aug 21, 2022 at 23:19

3 Answers 3

3
\$\begingroup\$

Here's a simplified schematic. Drivers don't have zero impedance, and even if they did the circuit board traces act like transmission lines and so would allow for a transient.

The noise source and the receiving lines are connected by a parasitic capacitance (or, sometimes, by parasitic inductance). When the source switches rapidly, C1 injects some current into the receiving line -- this works against the various impedances between that line and its drive, and make it bounce.

schematic

simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab

\$\endgroup\$
7
  • \$\begingroup\$ Thank you for the schematic! So let’s say the aggressor line switches from LO to HI and the victim line is steady at LO. When the current is injected into the victim, wouldn’t there be a potential drop equal to V = IR? Given that, I don’t see how the potential would climb to that of the aggressor instead of drop. \$\endgroup\$
    – KEE97
    Commented Aug 21, 2022 at 21:14
  • \$\begingroup\$ @KEE97 The voltage across C1 cannot change instantaneously, it takes a current to change it at a certain rate. So when the source changes, the receiver immediately changes to the same voltage. That new voltage causes a current to flow through R1, which then begins to charge C1 with a time constant of R1.C1. For Rs in 10s of ohms, and Cs in pFs, that's measured in tens of picoseconds. If the step on the source line has a risetime of less than this, you see the full pulse on the recevier. If the risetime is slower, the pulse is much less. \$\endgroup\$
    – Neil_UK
    Commented Aug 21, 2022 at 21:18
  • \$\begingroup\$ " I’m trying to think about how the voltage across a capacitor cannot change instantaneously." If you mean that in general then your problem isn't understanding crosstalk -- it's understanding basic circuit theory. \$\endgroup\$
    – TimWescott
    Commented Aug 21, 2022 at 21:43
  • \$\begingroup\$ Improperly phrased my previous comment. The lack of instantaneous change makes sense. What doesn’t is why the same potential is induced on the receiver’s node. \$\endgroup\$
    – KEE97
    Commented Aug 21, 2022 at 21:50
  • \$\begingroup\$ If that model were correct, then the receiver would have to see all of the change, at least until the R1-C1 circuit settled. The model is imperfect, for illustrative purposes. If it were perfect, there would be capacitors to ground everywhere, and transmission lines, and possibly lions and tigers and bears. So when the source switches, the receiver will see some of the voltage spike as it's divided between C1 (shown) and all the parasitic capacitance to ground (not shown). \$\endgroup\$
    – TimWescott
    Commented Aug 21, 2022 at 22:07
1
\$\begingroup\$

I understand that there will be some sort of capacitive coupling.

Yes, but capacitive coupling has implications that are even more essential than the name. Capacitive coupling implies that AC current will flow from the aggressor to the victim - via the parasitic capacitance.

And, whenever conductors are magnetically coupled - think parallel traces nearby on the board, or current loops coupling to each other - there will also be AC current induced in the victim, even if the coupling capacitance was zero.

Transformers work just fine with an electrostatic shield between the windings, after all, where the primary-to-secondary capacitance is approximately zero.

Now, if the victim had zero source impedance, then the DC current would not change the voltage. But no such zero-impedance circuits exist unless you're dealing with superconductors. As soon as the victim's impedance is non-zero, any current - whether DC or AC - will cause a voltage drop in the victim.

Furthermore, even if the victim was a perfect conductor at DC, it will not be a perfect conductor at AC, since at AC it's the mere geometry of the conductor that implies non-zero inductance. So, in all cases, AC currents will cause voltage drops across inductances in any conductor.

So, the physical explanation to all this is: practical circuits have non-zero coupling between all nodes, whether capacitive, magnetic, or both, and they have non-zero impedances. Thus currents flow from any node to any other node - we can name them aggressor and victim, but the nodes of course don't care about any of it. What matters, then, is limiting the magnitude of this coupling to keep the circuit functional.

\$\endgroup\$
1
  • \$\begingroup\$ Thank you all so much for your explanations! I feel like I’m overthinking the physics at this point. Things definitely make a lot more sense after reading all of your responses. The equivalent model also makes sense. I think my biggest question at this point is why the voltage on the receiver’s side of the capacitor changes with the aggressor. I thought capacitors resist sudden changes in voltage and so if the voltage on one side of the capacitor is changed, it wouldn’t suddenly change the voltage on the victim’s side, the capacitor would just slowly charge up to what is the “new” voltage? \$\endgroup\$
    – KEE97
    Commented Aug 22, 2022 at 21:49
0
\$\begingroup\$

schematic

simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab

The crosstalk cannot be properly explained without the complete network. The above circuit shows the complete (simplified) network diagram of all the elements involved.

To analyze, employ Superposition. To do this the effect of each source is analyzed separately with the other source set to zero as shown below.

schematic

simulate this circuit

To further simplify to clarify the question combine several elements into single impedance elements and redraw with the intention of revealing V2x due to V1.

schematic

simulate this circuit

So you can see that the crosstalk from NETA to NETB via Cc is a simple voltage divider. To complete the superposition set V1 to zero and apply V2. Calculate V2x due to V2 then add the previous result for the complete voltage at V2x.

\$\endgroup\$

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service and acknowledge you have read our privacy policy.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.